I just came across your site by chance, following the trail: Skeptico -> Blogam's Razor -> here.
This is a very cute little girl but I would like to point out something and please by all means, take no offense from it!
Isn't it a little too much to (basically) "impose" such things to such a young child? Wouldn't it be better instead, to teach the child how to think logically and critically, present it with all the arguments and evidence, and let it make up its own mind about religion, beliefs etc? I think it is way too young to be able to understand what you are telling her!
I do not mean to be offensive, and I certainly do not want to dictate how to raise your children (I have no such experience myself...). I simply thought that this is unnecessary indoctrination of a very young child.
No offense taken. I have every intention of indoctrinating my daughter with, among other things, the presupposition that it is a "good thing" to think "logically and critically." And her ground for all logic and meaning in the universe will be God.
I imagine that if you ever have your own children, it will become acutely evident that all parenting is indoctrination. The question is, which doctrine will you utilize?
prompt reply! But I do not agree with your statement that all parenting is indoctrination! It should be *education* not indoctrination. You *teach* your children how the world is, how it works, how the child should ask questions and actually question everything until it sees evidence and can critically reach a conclusion by itself.
A child will accept anything from authority figures without questioning anything they say. It is thus the purpose of the parents to *teach* them how to question things, and not believe anything they are told.
If I do agree with you and have to choose a doctrine, then that would most certainly be the scientific method. It is the one that consistently leads us to the truth, and has already done amazing things for the human kind. I would in all cases try to avoid imposing my beliefs in my children.
Sorry that a skeptic has infiltrated your blog :-). If at any point you feel I am taking advantage of your hospitality then please let me know and I will leave immediately.
i'm glad to see this interchange happening, actually--
i'm a mom of 4--the oldest is 37, the youngest nearly 20. My 27 year old and i have talked about this very thing from her perspective of having been brought up by parents teaching her to honor the things of God. All four have been brought up the same way, and each have reached a point where they did their own questioning and searching to decide if they believed the same things they were brought up with. This was a necessary part of their growth, and as responsible parents, we embrace this search.
Whether or not we intend to impose our beliefs on our children, we do. Children of all ages learn more by what they observe of their parents' actions towards them and towards others--the way they live their lives. (i say this from many parenting years of making mistakes and making apologies, and doing a few things right along the way--)
This is absolutely the right blog to share your skepticism!
No problem. It seems that we fundamentally disagree, and that's probably as far as we'll get. C'est la vie!
Your assumptions that the scientific method are (on pragmatic grounds) the only form of acceptable indoctrination (or as you would put it, education) are precisely what I deny.
Furthermore, you said that we are to teach children the way the world is, how it works, etc., and that is what I am trying to do.
I think that individual autonomy is a joke we believe to make ourselves feel better at the end of the day. "I was given all the brute facts, and I therefore came to a rational conclusion on my OWN." Ah, baloney.
By the way, you said that children don't question things... You obviously don't have children!!! They can't help but think critically, and question what they've been told. And when my daughter does this (in a respectful way of course), I make sure that I present her with a cogent answer. After all, I believe that my worldview (with which I am indoctrinating her)is actually coherent, correspondent to reality, and is true!
Sorry, I won't necessarily have all the time in the world to address your comments (I'm getting behinder as I write this!), but you're welcome to express your views here, and stop by anytime!
By the way, you may receive more interaction on philosophical issues over at my other blog: birdandbabe.blogpsot.com.
Ok this will (probably) be my last comment cause I do not want to take your time. No questions asked in this one :-)
To jle: I am really glad that your children managed to question the beliefs they grew up with. This is an extremely difficult task and believe me it is an exception in most other belief-based communities!
To drewdog: I never said that children do not question things! I said that they do not question what they are told by authority figures (parents, early teachers).
I also never said that the scientific method is the only form of acceptable indoctrination! Obviously, I think indoctrination is a bad thing. I said that *if* I had to agree with you on indoctrination then I would choose the scientific method because of a proven record to accurately describe our world.
Finally, giving someone the brute facts is certainly not enough for them! They must be taught how to think critically and thus process the facts in a reasonable way!
Sorry I cannot resist asking a rhetorical question: what will you say to your daughter if she asks: "how do you know God created the world?"
Nice discussing with you all. I will certainly check out your other blog.
1) Okay, then let me restate myself: Children do indeed question what they are told by authorities. Spend two minutes with a child. Thankfully, (what I think you're trying to point out) children do tend to be more trustworthy of what they are told by authorities. This is good for you too, because you seem hell-bent on TEACHING them that they MUST think critically and thus process the facts in a reasonable way (btw, what gives you the right to impose upon them your view of what is right; i.e.- that they must think rationally, why not let them decide for themselves? Sounds like you're into indoctrination). Cool. :)
Let me play around with your rhetorical question. Why don't you ask my daughter how she knows that God created the world? She'll tell you,"Why, because my Dad told me, of course." And that works for me.
Perhaps if you ask her when she's an adult she'll say, "My parents (and my church) told me so, I searched it out, and came it turns out they were right. Just like they were right when they told me to think critically about everything."
Anyway, I better stop beating this dead horse and get back to my work! It's been great getting to know you Stavros.
Hi, I am a skeptic (well, not about being skeptical)
I believe that we should approach all claims carefully, using reason (well, except for this claim)
You see, skepticism is a method not a position (well, except for this one position we hold to)
And, we fully believe that all dogmas (well, besides this dogma of course) impede upon intelligence (according to one of our great religious, I mean philosophical teachers Bertrand Russel)
I never approach anything closed to the possibility that thing could be real (as long as it is something that can be empirically verified)
Finally, when I say I am a skeptic I mean that I BELIEVE one needs to see some evidence before one believes it...question all assumptions that is (except this one, of course)
16 Comments:
She is getting so big, cute and smart. We miss you lots and love you
This totally made our day.
Good job, Karis!
What a little beauty! And gotta love the "announcer voice" daddy in the background ;-)
Hi to the lovely mommy and wife.
Hi,
I just came across your site by chance, following the trail: Skeptico -> Blogam's Razor -> here.
This is a very cute little girl but I would like to point out something and please by all means, take no offense from it!
Isn't it a little too much to (basically) "impose" such things to such a young child? Wouldn't it be better instead, to teach the child how to think logically and critically, present it with all the arguments and evidence, and let it make up its own mind about religion, beliefs etc? I think it is way too young to be able to understand what you are telling her!
I do not mean to be offensive, and I certainly do not want to dictate how to raise your children (I have no such experience myself...). I simply thought that this is unnecessary indoctrination of a very young child.
Have a good day
Greetings Stavros,
No offense taken. I have every intention of indoctrinating my daughter with, among other things, the presupposition that it is a "good thing" to think "logically and critically." And her ground for all logic and meaning in the universe will be God.
I imagine that if you ever have your own children, it will become acutely evident that all parenting is indoctrination. The question is, which doctrine will you utilize?
Cheers,
Andrew
Hi Andrew,
prompt reply! But I do not agree with your statement that all parenting is indoctrination! It should be *education* not indoctrination. You *teach* your children how the world is, how it works, how the child should ask questions and actually question everything until it sees evidence and can critically reach a conclusion by itself.
A child will accept anything from authority figures without questioning anything they say. It is thus the purpose of the parents to *teach* them how to question things, and not believe anything they are told.
If I do agree with you and have to choose a doctrine, then that would most certainly be the scientific method. It is the one that consistently leads us to the truth, and has already done amazing things for the human kind. I would in all cases try to avoid imposing my beliefs in my children.
Sorry that a skeptic has infiltrated your blog :-). If at any point you feel I am taking advantage of your hospitality then please let me know and I will leave immediately.
i'm glad to see this interchange happening, actually--
i'm a mom of 4--the oldest is 37, the youngest nearly 20. My 27 year old and i have talked about this very thing from her perspective of having been brought up by parents teaching her to honor the things of God. All four have been brought up the same way, and each have reached a point where they did their own questioning and searching to decide if they believed the same things they were brought up with. This was a necessary part of their growth, and as responsible parents, we embrace this search.
Whether or not we intend to impose our beliefs on our children, we do. Children of all ages learn more by what they observe of their parents' actions towards them and towards others--the way they live their lives. (i say this from many parenting years of making mistakes and making apologies, and doing a few things right along the way--)
This is absolutely the right blog to share your skepticism!
Hi Stavros,
No problem. It seems that we fundamentally disagree, and that's probably as far as we'll get. C'est la vie!
Your assumptions that the scientific method are (on pragmatic grounds) the only form of acceptable indoctrination (or as you would put it, education) are precisely what I deny.
Furthermore, you said that we are to teach children the way the world is, how it works, etc., and that is what I am trying to do.
I think that individual autonomy is a joke we believe to make ourselves feel better at the end of the day. "I was given all the brute facts, and I therefore came to a rational conclusion on my OWN." Ah, baloney.
By the way, you said that children don't question things... You obviously don't have children!!! They can't help but think critically, and question what they've been told. And when my daughter does this (in a respectful way of course), I make sure that I present her with a cogent answer. After all, I believe that my worldview (with which I am indoctrinating her)is actually coherent, correspondent to reality, and is true!
Sorry, I won't necessarily have all the time in the world to address your comments (I'm getting behinder as I write this!), but you're welcome to express your views here, and stop by anytime!
By the way, you may receive more interaction on philosophical issues over at my other blog: birdandbabe.blogpsot.com.
Cheers,
Andrew
Ok this will (probably) be my last comment cause I do not want to take your time. No questions asked in this one :-)
To jle:
I am really glad that your children managed to question the beliefs they grew up with. This is an extremely difficult task and believe me it is an exception in most other belief-based communities!
To drewdog:
I never said that children do not question things! I said that they do not question what they are told by authority figures (parents, early teachers).
I also never said that the scientific method is the only form of acceptable indoctrination! Obviously, I think indoctrination is a bad thing. I said that *if* I had to agree with you on indoctrination then I would choose the scientific method because of a proven record to accurately describe our world.
Finally, giving someone the brute facts is certainly not enough for them! They must be taught how to think critically and thus process the facts in a reasonable way!
Sorry I cannot resist asking a rhetorical question: what will you say to your daughter if she asks: "how do you know God created the world?"
Nice discussing with you all. I will certainly check out your other blog.
Yo, Stavros,
1) Okay, then let me restate myself: Children do indeed question what they are told by authorities. Spend two minutes with a child. Thankfully, (what I think you're trying to point out) children do tend to be more trustworthy of what they are told by authorities. This is good for you too, because you seem hell-bent on TEACHING them that they MUST think critically and thus process the facts in a reasonable way (btw, what gives you the right to impose upon them your view of what is right; i.e.- that they must think rationally, why not let them decide for themselves? Sounds like you're into indoctrination). Cool. :)
Let me play around with your rhetorical question. Why don't you ask my daughter how she knows that God created the world? She'll tell you,"Why, because my Dad told me, of course." And that works for me.
Perhaps if you ask her when she's an adult she'll say, "My parents (and my church) told me so, I searched it out, and came it turns out they were right. Just like they were right when they told me to think critically about everything."
Anyway, I better stop beating this dead horse and get back to my work! It's been great getting to know you Stavros.
Cheers,
Andrew
Well, i was going to make more of a comment, but Andrew, you just said it way more eloquently. ;-)
Stavros, you will definitely enjoy the other blog, it is pretty much over my head! ;-)
(julie elder)
(Oh--and please say hi to Bekah! And am i even remotely close to correct spelling? i can never get that right!)
julie elder
Thanks, jle.
And tell Dean that I said hello. Hope all is well with you!
Andrew
I didn't see your last post until I had already posted mine. You actually spelled it perfectly!
I'll definitely pass on your greetings, or she'll read them for herself here.
We're okay, thanks for asking. :-)
Your phrasing always makes me smile.
When writing Bekah's name i was saying to myself, "think biblical, think biblical..."
Hi, I am a skeptic (well, not about being skeptical)
I believe that we should approach all claims carefully, using reason (well, except for this claim)
You see, skepticism is a method not a position (well, except for this one position we hold to)
And, we fully believe that all dogmas (well, besides this dogma of course) impede upon intelligence (according to one of our great religious, I mean philosophical teachers Bertrand Russel)
I never approach anything closed to the possibility that thing could be real (as long as it is something that can be empirically verified)
Finally, when I say I am a skeptic I mean that I BELIEVE one needs to see some evidence before one believes it...question all assumptions that is (except this one, of course)
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